Talking To Teens: Expert Tips for Parenting Teenagers

Andy Earle
Hey, it's Andy from talking to teens, it would mean the world to us. If you could leave us a five star review. reviews on Apple and Spotify help other parents find the show. And that helps us keep the lights on.

Thanks for being a listener. And here's the show. You're listening to talking to teens where we speak with leading experts from a variety of disciplines about the art and science of parenting teenagers. I'm your host, Andy Earle. A we're here today with Sheri Glucoft Wong, author of raising kids your essential guide to everyday parenting.

And we're talking about communication. Why is it that there are some issues that seem easy to talk about easy to communicate about easy to influence your teenager on and other issues that seems so hard and it feels like pulling teeth and seems like they always kind of lead to power struggles and difficult dynamics theory refers to this difference as being on your spot. As a parent, when you're on your spot, things seem to go easily and you have influence. When you're off your spot. You're struggling and trying to find leverage. What's the difference? And how do we find our spot and stay there more often. That's the topic of today's episode. Sheri is a nationally recognized family therapist, parenting expert and speaker at public and independent schools. She has provided training at UC San Francisco, Stanford, Kaiser Permanente Apple, Genentech, Gymboree and other organizations and she is the author of the book raising kids your essential guide to everyday parenting, really excited to speak with Sheri Today about all her work, and how parents of teenagers can apply her tactics to stay on our spot and have more influence when it counts. Jerry, thank you so much for coming on the show today.

Sheri Glucoft Wong
Thank you so much. I'm so happy to be here.

Andy Earle
I am really, really excited. I just read your book over the weekend, raising kids your essential guide to everyday parenting. And wow, I got I mean, there's tons of tons of stuff to talk about in here. I think you have a lot of really, really, really great, really great ideas. I wonder, well, how do you develop all of this, you have a whole kind of a whole system of you know, this framework, this idea of staying on your spot? And what what that means and all these kinds of strategies and how to do that. Where did where did it come from? Or how did you develop all this?

Sheri Glucoft Wong
That's such a great question. First of all, I've been a family therapist for many decades, starting with pretty much around the time that people started, therapists started addressing concerns about kids and teens, with the family instead of separately. So I kind of grew my skills, along with family therapy developing was awesome. So that's one thing, just looking at how that central how family dynamics are central and how you can't really support a kid without supporting parents how important that is to or whoever are the caretaking grownups in a kid's life. But the other part is over the years, I've been doing this so long that people stop me on the street and say, Oh, my goodness, you did a workshop at my kids preschool this many years ago. And they're now have their own kids. And they're now this and that. And I remember that you said, and I've been hearing this for a long time, I remember you said or this thing you said, those would be the things I would build on. So it was really a partnership with all the parents and families I've worked with, or kids adopting the language from sound bites I use to convince parents of something. And those are the things that got developed in the book, say, can we turn this into my co author? Ellie Jorgensen is a head of school in Silicon Valley. And he actually came up to me when I was working at his school and said, what, why don't you have a book and I said, I talk I don't write. He said, Well, I write. And I would love to partner with you on putting this stuff into a book that parents could use. So that's how the book happened. That's how the material developed over

Andy Earle
the years. So it's time tested. It's battle tested and proven. I love that.

Sheri Glucoft Wong
And as through all the trends and all the kinds of parenting,

Andy Earle
there's really great stories throughout the book of little little anecdotes of families that you've worked with or seen in your practice and kind of issues that they're having. And it's so relatable to kind of see how these ideas play out in real world situations. And I think that's a big part of really what makes the book so practical. Oh, thank

Sheri Glucoft Wong
you. Yeah, I love the stories. Parents have the stories too.

Andy Earle
What does it mean to be on your spot? As a parent, when

Sheri Glucoft Wong
I do a workshop, I'll ask parents raise your hand, if you have trouble getting your kids out the door, bunch of hands go up, raise your hand, if you have trouble getting your kids into bed at night to turn off the light, go to sleep bunch of hands, raise your hand, if you have trouble at meals, getting kids to go getting them to eat, having everybody be civilized at the table, bunch of hands go up, raise your hand, if you have trouble with the way your kids talk to you or talk to each other at home, punch your hands go up. Raise your hand, if you have trouble having your kids stay buckled in the car. No hands go up. And I say anybody notice anything? They laugh, I say really? Anybody notice anything? Somebody says? Well, it's the law. And when there's a mix of ages, I'll say You mean your four year olds are reading law books. No, no, no. I said, I don't even think your teenagers are reading law books. So why don't they? Well, it's non negotiable, whose it non negotiable to us, the parents and I said, but you don't fight about it. You don't bicker about it. I never hear no one ever comes to me and says my kids fighting with me about wearing a seatbelt. And why that it isn't that they don't resist when they're toddlers to be buckled in. They don't like it. A lot of them. But the parents are so clear from head to toe, their head say, hey, the research says this is what keeps my kids safe. Do I have the heart to do everything? I know I should as a parent. No, I don't? Do I have the heart to do this? To keep them safe? Yes, I do. Do my instincts line up with what I read. Yes, my instincts are that my kids should be snugged. And when you are in alignment, when your head, heart and gut are all lined up, then you can walk your talk or stand firm with whatever you're doing. And moreover, it isn't coerced, or bribed or threatened. When you're on your spot. You're firm, but kind you're clear. You just know this is what's going to happen. This is what we're doing. I'm going to prevail here. And there's good nature. There's not harsh nature. And so parents say okay, I can do it about seatbelt Why can't do it about anything else. And I say it's not true. Think about the things in your dear kids fight over who's gonna sit in what chair at the table each night? Oh, no, they've accepted. This is where they sit, or we don't do that. I'll see families, where kids do not listen to parents about stopping this or coming here doing their chore they do have good manners, or the parents will say I don't like the tone my kid takes do they swear at you? Oh, no, they would never do that. Why not? And the answer, honestly, is that parents are on their spot about being current step, but not so much on their spot about kids talking with attitude, or rolling eyes or something. And that's okay. Just know that you're not on your spot. So you haven't set a limit about that. And maybe it's fine with you. I'll tell parents when it comes to setting limits to think about is this something that I'm on my spot about that I want to take on? Or maybe not yet or not now, or in the scheme of things, not high on the list. So that that's what I mean by that. And it goes beyond parenting in light, the ways were on our spot, we're clear, were effective. And we're ourselves when we do it, we don't have to take on some kind of posturing. So it's impressive. And if you've been on the other end of a kid being on their spot, they just look at you know, I'm not eating that. They're so clear, like you don't even bother

Andy Earle
we also have a really interesting discussion here about over identifying versus under identifying what what do you mean by that? And how do we over or under identify?

Sheri Glucoft Wong
I think it's unavoidable to sometimes over identify or under identify, we wouldn't be human. So I am fond of saying that kids and I think all of us need to know two things to feel good about ourselves. One is that we're special and unique and there's no one else like us and the other is that we're just like everybody else and the art of parenting is knowing when to give which message but the same thing is true. The thing about being special and unique is feeling seen, like an avatar to I love this and avatar to the way the adult said to the kids, basically, I love you. It is I see you, I see you, I get you, I get the unique you. And it's such a powerful thing to be seen. But it's also very powerful to recognize that everybody feels disappointed. Everybody is anxious, everybody gets insecure about something, everybody has doubts. Everybody wishes they could have something, or someone in their lives that they don't have. And when you recognize that you feel connected to everybody else, you don't feel less than when you're struggling. So both of those things are important. But we struggle to hold on to both of them, just as human beings. And as parents, with our kids. We sometimes instead of seeing them, we see our own hopes and dreams and desires or our own pains and disappointments, we want to spare them even though that might not hurt them so bad because they are distinct from us being able to be connected and connected enough to have empathy, to put yourself in their shoes. To understand this might be hard for you, even though it's not hard for me to understand that when I'm saying no, I think it's for your own good, but it's worrying you and you feel bad about it, put yourself in their shoes, but don't get stuck in their shoes. Be so in their shoes that you don't become a stay at distinct person that's out there supporting them. So many parents get so merged with the over identifying that kids either feel pressured or abandon because their parent cries when they cry so much that they end up having to take care of them. And the under identifying, I think lines up with being able to like most parents have a lot of compassion for their kids, they feel for them. But often, it's hard to feel what they feel to put yourself in their shoes. That's empathy. And some people are born with more of an aptitude for that some people have to develop it. But to be able to bridge that when you don't get what your kid is feeling to be able to say, Can you help me understand why that's so upsetting? Or why that's so important. So I use the phrase a lot to be curious, instead of furious to, to wonder to ask to lean in what do you like so much about that video game that that's all you want to do? What is so compelling about to lean in so that you're not under identified so that you're able to say, I see where that's engaging, or funny. And here's the effect that has on me.

Andy Earle
You talked about how we can watch out for using the word we as often a sign of over identifying Oh, yeah, we have a soccer game on Saturday, or we're applying to, you know, these schools for college, or whatever that is, that's a good, a good sort of just just check her to notice yourself kind of using that language, where you're grouping yourself together with your teenager, and maybe just noticed that maybe you're really kind of getting a little too wrapped up in their world.

Sheri Glucoft Wong
Although when you're having an argument to be able to say we seem to be having a hard time. No, you do.

Andy Earle
Just fine. Yeah, exactly. Your problem.

Sheri Glucoft Wong
Exactly. Just knowing when is the when to distinguish and wanting to connect.

Andy Earle
Here's another really, really interesting idea from the book, kind of when we, when we get off our spot, we realized we're sort of scrambling for leverage, you know, with the, with the seatbelt example, I think is just so so powerful, because you can just sort of feel that it's like, you don't need to bribe your kid or, you know, punish your kid to try to get them to put their seatbelt on. It's just like, put your seatbelt on. So we can go. And they do. That's when you're kind of in that place where you're like, just so sure about it. But so much of the time as parents, I think we find ourselves just grasping for different kinds of leverage. We know one obvious way that this happens is is is punishment, and I hear so many parents talking about like, Oh, I've tried everything. I took away her phone, I took away her I grounded her I took away her computer. i Why are we doing that? It's it's because we're feeling like we're losing control or we're not able to have influence and we're kind of grasping for punitive kind of measures to do that. And you talk about if then messages in the book and how to how to just just tweak those to win. Then messages. What does that mean?

Sheri Glucoft Wong
Well, the thing you're raising is really important. Parents often struggle when they feel they don't have love which. And it is true that you need some feeling of how to get some traction with your kids, when something is important to you in your adult wisdom that your kids aren't seeing, and you need to have some authority and you don't have it. So I'm not against leverage. Or another word for it might be influenced up in your influence with your kids. But so many parents resort to threats, empty or not, you're talking about ones that aren't empty, they probably really do take away those things. What all the research has shown, I've felt this for a long time. I'm very excited that there's lots of research on it is that punishment doesn't work that those things. And by the way, there's another word that boy, if I had $1, every time I heard parents use this word, I would be retired with summer homes all over the world consequences. They say I'm not I don't do punishment, but I do consequences. That's just a trendy word for punishment. You know, it's an if then if you do this, then that happens. The the then parents say, What about cause and effect? That's right, cause and effect is important. So having kids understand there's results. That make sense. If you keep speaking to me rudely, when I'm trying to help you with your homework, I'm not going to want to sit here and do this. It's just kind of the way things work. That's a result that makes sense. And I'm taking away your bicycle. Yeah, exactly. Or if you're so out of control in your behavior at the table, that it's unpleasant for everyone, I'm going to ask you to take a break, then then the parents will say, well, where should they take a break, we'll hop up the room. Well, they've got books and stuff to do in there. I said, Well, they're not doing time for their time. They're taking a break, who cares if they read a book, that's what calms them down? The point is, this is what we need here. This is a way that you can get there when I talk about the Tweak of going from if then which are threats, which by the way, have the terrible side effects of kids growing up to become either threatened errs, like their parents or threat knees, people who are really responsive every time somebody says, I'm going to report you, without even stopping to think does that make sense? So what if they report me I was doing something that was fine to shift from threats from if then to win them. So instead of if you don't get that homework done, you're not getting any screen time tonight, you say, Sure, you can app screen time when your homeworks done, yeah, we can go out to to do this. And that after your homework is done, Oh, you want some allowance? Sure. When you finish your chores, then you can have your allowance. So going from when then you have incentive and encouragement and you're communicating an expectation that I have confidence in you that you'll do this, which is so different than setting up a power struggle with threats. And it's such an easy tweet, parents tell me that it turns life around in a week in their household, it just makes a very different atmosphere. When you stop doing that. And you realize how much how many if then there are I cheat. I tell parents when their partner to ask their partner to elbow them when they if them, anybody, including the part this stuff works on marriages to the Communication Arts, think about all the threats. If you do this, then I'm not gonna you know, as opposed to, you know what, when we get this all cleaned up, I'll be glad to hang out and do this with you.

Andy Earle
It sounds it feels so much less, like vindictive or something, it's less like you're kind of trying to hurt them or make them feel bad because they did the wrong thing. And it's, it's more like you're you're having faith that they're gonna get it done. And when they do, we'll go we'll do this or we'll have this or you can have this back or whatever. It's

Sheri Glucoft Wong
funny how we think I mean, there's actual power in me there really isn't power and mean it's just it's not really necessary.

Andy Earle
LFL you talk about sports, and how and you know, there's sports there's rules where we need to be able to play a game and everybody's following the same rules and yeah, there might be there might be a penalty or yeah, you might get a penalty kick or get a you know get a free throw because someone else will broke was did something that's against the rules, but it's not like it's not a it's not a punishment. It's you know, it's it's yeah it doesn't feel you're not mad at the ref or you don't feel like angry towards the referee because they will put you in the penalty box or something. If anything, it's the time to really reflect on your own behavior and realize that you could have done something different Yeah.

You use this phrase a number of times in the book. And I think it's really impactful. You say that it's not really what happens to your child, but what the child makes it that truly matters. What do you mean by that?

Sheri Glucoft Wong
Well, you know, a lot of parents feel discouraged about the idea that their kids are going to have experiences or be exposed to things that are upsetting, painful, I mean, look at COVID, the pandemic had a huge effect on kids on their social development on their academic development. And there's nothing a parent can do about it, there's so many things that happen that as parents, we just cannot control that that happens. But we can influence what it comes to mean to our kids that had happened. So to be able to talk about it afterward, I have so many parents say, Well, I don't want my kid to go to this school where I know there's racial dynamics, or I don't want my kid to have this experience or that experience, there'll be plenty of time in life later to be exposed to all that. And that's true. But as a parent, if your kids are exposed to things that are disappointing, or difficult, when they're still on your watch, you have an opportunity to influence what it comes to mean to them in terms of your values, in terms of the way you hold them in terms of your confidence in them in terms of promoting their resilience, helping them figure out what's a big deal? And what's a little deal? What are the kinds of things that are lasting, what are the kinds of things that are going to pass, and you can shake the way your kid holds those things, you can influence that when you're walking the walk with them. So

Andy Earle
how do we reframe those kind of experiences? Or what do we what do we say, to help try to change what it means to them or what they take away from it,

Sheri Glucoft Wong
I think there's things that you can help kids with, for example, what things to take, personally, if someone's been mean or unkind to you being able to say, you know, when somebody says something to you, even if you're grammatically the subject of the sentence, they're saying, You suck, they're really telling you something about them. They're saying I'm angry, or I'm unhappy, or I'm having a feeling. So to not take that in, as if it's defining you, it doesn't define you, it defines something about them. And if you're interested, you can ask more about it. And if you're not, you can say, Oh, well and walk away. But you don't need to be taking that in. And the other thing is like with COVID, you know, things happen. This was an unusual thing in our generation, you know, it hasn't happened for 100 years, something like this, and being able to say about the pandemic, and being able to say, you know, things like this happen, sometimes they don't happen to us, they are happening, and we get to figure out how we're gonna relate to it, what we're gonna let it do or not do, what are the parts we can control? What are the parts, we need to say, Oh, well communicate, you and I were talking earlier about the importance of communication, to be able to get curious and ask your kid well, what's the hardest part about this? That's one of my favorite questions to ask kids come in and tell me some big story about a thing that happened with parents friends, school something, and it's so obvious why it's upsetting. But I've learned over the years that what's obvious to me might be me over identifying with some part of it. So I'll always ask, What's the hardest part often really surprised? Like, oh, was the hardest part that that they just walked away from you that way? No, actually, I know he's moody like that. The hardest part was, I didn't get to finish the game. So I would have been a whole on a trend about their self esteem when they just had a disappointing moment. You know, it's it's good to lean in and know what something means to a kid and to help them if they're confused or challenged or just feeling a lot about it.

Andy Earle
We're here today with Sheri Glucoft Wong, talking about how to stay on our spot as parents and how to have more influence when it really counts. And we're not done yet. Here's a look at what's coming up in the second half of the show.

Sheri Glucoft Wong
It doesn't serve the kid being labeled as a bully. And it's even worse to cast your own kid in a role as a victim that they may begin to identify and organize a sense of identity around the control being outside of them. It's never too late. It is never too late to forge the kind of relationship you want to have with your kids. It's never too late. I think with this kid. Probably the core thing that happened is the parents focused a lot on her being special and unique and selling breaded that which is lovely, but did it to the exclusion of the just like everybody else part that sometimes we need to do what everybody else does. Sometimes we need to be just like everybody else. It's great to be creative and dynamic and assertive. And it's also important to be able to get with the program. Sometimes that kid understood that I can't tell when I should be putting the weight of my foot on being special and unique. And when I need to join, it's hard for me to know that and then it's hard for me to do it. So she she had some work cut out for her. But they all made a shift around that and stop being mad at each other so much. What most well, meaning parents say, intentionally, or communicate intentionally, are all really good messages for their kids to have, you know, I care about you, I want things to go well for you. I love you, it's important to take care of yourself. But what we don't notice is that when we indulge a tantrum, or indulge sulking that we're giving the kid the message that this disappointment is some kind of tragedy that needs to be soothed and dealt with, I don't have confidence that you can be upset and just move past that you need external things to be different for you to be okay. So it's taking the locus of control over a kid's feelings away from that kid internal self and saying the outside has to be arranged a certain way for you to feel okay. And that's not a message a parent wants a kid to have. And most of the time when parents are indulging sulking or a tantrum, it's really a little bit self serving, like we I just can't have another evening. This or I just can't stand this noise or this attitude or we're going to grandma's house and I need you to be in a good mood. That kid takes it to be that you agree with me that this needs to be rearranged for me to feel okay, a kid says the teacher was unfair to me, I'm gonna go to your school tomorrow. We didn't mean for our kid to get the message. I don't have confidence in you that you can talk to your teacher and handle this. It's a matter of us double checking our own motivation.

Andy Earle
Want to hear the full episode, head over to talking to teens.com/register for a free trial of our premium podcast, you get exclusive access to loads of great content with no obligation and your membership supports the work we do here at talking to teens get started today with a free trial over at talking to teens.com/registered Thanks for listening. We'll see you next week.